The views and opinions expressed in this article are those of the interviewees and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Socio.

Breaking into the virtual event space has left the entire industry with a ton of questions, and who better to answer them than EventHack 2020 Judges’ Choice winning team, The CURE.

On May 1st, Will Curran of Endless Events, Tess Vismale of isocialx, Kimmie Glass of Pinterest, and Matt Heinz of Heinz Marketing joined Socio for a Q&A session to share tips about executing virtual events.

Enjoy this write up of the event!

Question 1: What’s the best platform for hosting webinars/online conferences? (Other than Zoom!)?

Will Curran: Yeah, definitely get out of Zoom. So, I’ll say why you shouldn’t do Zoom. Audio quality is focused on voice rather than video sound. So, if you ever had someone share audio, for example, you don’t get that low rumbling bass.

The reason why most people will notice is because most people are listening to it through their laptop speakers, but hook in some Bose speakers and listen to a Zoom call and you’ll hear that the voice sounds very, just the midtones on there. Second thing as well is that the video drops every half frame or every other frame or so to save on bandwidth.

So, it works for everyone because the way it works is that they design it to work for everyone rather than scale it for better quality for some people, less quality for others. So, the quality is just not there. But I like it because I get to do the hand raise functionality and stuff.

There’s better stuff out there that can do more, but also as well, there’s now the stigma of Zoom, everyone’s in Zoom all the time. Matt, Tess, Kimmie, what do you guys think? Have you guys just been spending a lot of time in Zoom as well?

Kimmie Glass: As a company, we actually use Google for everything, but I will say Zoom is ahead of Google and a lot of their features. But with webinars, we’ve used Ustream before and we’re still working with Google, but Google is rolling out a lot more features to catch up with Zoom. 

Tess Vismale: I look at tech in various different ways and I always approach it from the standpoint of the audience I’m talking to. So, no, there are no absolutes in event technology.  There is not one platform that’s going to fit everything that you need.

When it comes from a security standpoint, as it relates to Zoom in their issues, people need to think about the number one fact, which is, if someone wants to get you, they’re going to get you. They already have your information. So, you need to be able to sleep well at night, protect yourself the way that you want, but don’t function from a standpoint of fear where you feel like you need to shut all kinds of things down.

Because, that is not necessarily possible. You can protect yourself to a point, but don’t get consumed with it to the fact that you say, “I’m not doing Zoom because they have security issues.” What you need to realize is that people have had issues, and will have hackers go into their systems. They’re already there. All pretty much people are doing is trying to figure out how to close the gaps down.

And to make sure that they’re not getting to certain information. So, a company like Zoom, for instance, their flag has been raised, so then they’re putting measures in place to help better protect the things that they’re doing. So it’s better off for you to think about, “Hey, do I want to deal with a company where I publicly know they’re doing something about their security?” Or am I going to pivot to a company that says that they’re secure and I don’t know, because it’s not publicly tested. Meaning I don’t know that they have had a quote on call breach, right? Or some of the smaller companies that are coming out with all these wonderful things and you have no idea what they’re doing with your data.

So, I always like to caution people on making blanket statements like, “Zoom is not safe because they say it’s not safe and I shouldn’t do X, Y, and Z.” But it’s better for you to think about the fact that if, if the public knows that they’re not safe, they’re doing all they can to shut those doors and you have no idea what others are doing.

Be cautious about that. So yes, there are tons of platforms out there, and I encourage people to look at platforms from the standpoint of your strategy. What does it make sense for what my event and my objectives are and what I want to deliver for my audiences? And see what platforms fit that, because you might not want to do a webinar, right?

It might not work. Sound might be very important to you, like Will said, which is great. Zoom might not deliver it. There may be some other platforms that can, they’re out there and there are plenty of them. So kind of make sure that you’re exploring it in that respect.

Matt Heinz: The other thing I liked about the event we did with the hackathon [Socio’s EventHack 20], and what I’ve noticed with successful events in general the last few weeks is they’re not presentations. They’re conversations, right? It feels like you’re sitting at the table with other people as part of the discussion as opposed to watching someone else do something.

And I think especially in this virtual world right now, like the bar is higher, you know, you may be able to hire Daniel Pink to come speak at your live event, and that’s cool. People get to see them live. But if you have him just come present at your on-demand event, I mean, people can just go to YouTube and watch them whenever they want.

So you know, the bar is higher for what you do for presenters, but also think the format is interesting and what’s interesting there is you think about curating the audience becomes almost just as important as curating the speakers, if the conversation is going to be part of the value people get.

Question 2: Can you speak about pricing for virtual events? 

Will Curran: Charge what you were charging before. We can talk about services and stuff.

Tess Vismale: This is not a time for us to be taking a perspective of, “I’m a competitor of another and I don’t want to share how I approach doing the businesses that I do.”

Because right now, life has leveled the playing field. We’re all at similar places, and if we’re not taking a perspective from a collective and a consortium and sharing information, partnering with people, and being able to help move our industry forward in a more holistic way, we’re going to lose out on more than we have with what the virus has done at this point.

So, maybe it’s around, not necessarily the numbers. We could talk about strategies. How are you looking? Are you doing it from the standpoint of an hourly rate? And then you’re converting that over to more of a fee? Is it more of a retainer? You know, there are certain things that we should be talking about to each other as it relates to pricing.

And one thing I want to caution people on is too, is that I’ve seen where people are not putting value to what we have done and what our institutional memory is around how we’re producing events and assume that since we’ve pivoted to virtual, our prices should be less, right? Our value should last.

Will Curran: Endless Events ended up charging more than we used to charge because we knew that we had the value in that people were coming to us. You know, what you’re talking about, you should be charging for it.

Question 3: Back to best platforms, how do you decide? 

Will Curran: I’ll tell you right now. It depends. That’s the biggest question you can ask, the problem is too many people are like, “Yeah, compare all these ones.” But like, honestly, first of all, we have to give a shout-out to Socio because they’re the ones who put this all together.

We would never have met as a team,  if we hadn’t done this, or if they hadn’t done this, but I know that Socio will also admit that they know where their strengths are and where another platform might be better. And I can tell you, I’m looking at all those platforms.

Each of those had their own strengths and they’re perfect for every different type of event as well.  

Matt Heinz: It really does, it depends on what you’re trying to do and it depends on what your objective is. if you’re trying to create something that’s interactive, it’s really important that I think like this, you’ve got people that you can invite a lot of panelists in and have a discussion, a more intimate event, if you’re really trying to replicate what you could do around the dinner table to have a real intimate conversation.

You know, I think a tool like Zoom is going to be better than something like an On24. Our church uses livestream from Vimeo because it’s not really participatory. We’re watching a service, we’re all engaging, and then there’s a chat on the side and it scales really well.

My answer is the same as yours. Then it’s the same as if people say, “Hey, what’s the best marketing automation platform on the market?” Like, that’s the wrong question for 90% of people asking the question. I can tell you what the best platform is, but most people can’t afford it, let alone shouldn’t be using it.

So start with your objectives. Understand your strategy. The technology is an implementation of your strategy. Strategy has to come first.

Kimmie Glass: Yeah. So I agree with Matt. I think it depends what you’re looking for. Our needs for the most part have been how can we communicate everything out to all of our employees and all offices across the board and in a global friendly time zone. So for us, like our needs are, we want the speakers to have clarity. Everyone else as a participant is pretty much muted. And the way that we actually ask questions is through Slack. And then we have one person that is in charge of surfacing the questions.

So for us, just any video platform works well for that. Something that is able to stream to more than 2,000 people. I would say with what Matt said, like there’s no one platform that I would recommend overall. It really just depends what your needs are. Like what are you tracking, right? If you’re just tracking numbers, that’s one thing. But if you want to actually track participants of who’s calling in some platforms only track numbers, some will track the actual names so that you know where the people are calling in from. So, that’s also a factor to consider.

Question 4: How do you use music to drive up energy and what equipment/software do you use? Can it run separate from the presentation via an admin? 

Will Curran: The way I did it is I just shared my computer audio in Zoom. You can technically share your screen and just check the box of “share audio.” And it played on Spotify at a very low volume, so it wasn’t too loud. It was easy. I just make sure also my notifications are all turned off too, because otherwise you’d hear ping of slacks and things like that.

Super-duper easy to do and yes, it is possible to do it separate from the admin, but it gets a little bit more complex depending on live streams and stuff like that.

Question 5: Are there any platforms you would suggest for breakouts? 

Will Curran: I’ll tell you right now. So we’ve looked at over a hundred different platforms over the years, and no one has quite solved the small groups within an embeddable kind of format that allows you to put it on a virtual event platform as well. Obviously Zoom, kind of figured out what their breakout rooms, but the thing I don’t like about Zoom breakout rooms is that you have to have a meeting, so you have to format like this [meeting] and then go to breakouts versus you can’t go from a general session where everyone’s webcams are off into breakout rooms as well.

But I’ll tell you right now, no one quite has managed to solve the issue of small, group discussions like breakout rooms and things like that as well. I’ll tell you guys right now that even the company who produces virtual events struggles with that. Sometimes figure out more creative ways to maybe get around that as well. So hopefully that’s helpful.

Question 6: What certifications do you recommend? 

Tess Vismale: There are several out there. Several of us might be a member of both PCMA and MPI.

So PCMA has the CMP certification. And then also on the MPI side, there’s education that’s offered through them, through the Event Leadership Institute. I think you should look at both contents. I think you should look at all kinds of education that’s out there and arm yourself with the best. 

My rule of thumb when it comes to education is no one knows everything. And if they tell you they know everything, they really lied to you because it’s hard to keep up with the technologies that are out there. We just do a really good job of staying abreast on what works, what doesn’t, and can kind of look at it pretty quickly.

Then assess and attain pretty quickly. But, there’s theory, there’s practical education where people are getting their hands on, you know, people learn all different types of ways. What works for you might be very different. So there’s definitely education out there.

Question 7: How do you see quality video/audio delivered? 

Kimmie Glass: I know some vendors that have gotten ahead and they, if you’re a speaker, they’re essentially sending home these like at-home tool kits for you, which is really cool . If you don’t have any of the, you know, event tech, you need to look a little more professional, cool backdrop, lighting, all of that.

Will Curran: Definitely when it comes to the go kits, as we call them, at Endless. Know that there’s a worldwide shortage right now, primarily webcams.

So, something to be careful of as well is if you have like 700 sessions, you’re going to need 700 go kits to send out to everybody. So, just kind of keep in mind as well, just when you’re designing your content. 

Question 8: Is Pinterest going to take the ideas that came from Eventhack2020?

Kimmie Glass: I will say that before I joined the hackathon, we had already kind of made a decision of what was happening with that event we brought to life.

So yeah. Though the event we brought to life, it was kind of like, what if we did bring it to life? But we have some really cool programs. We have something that we call virtual popups, which is kind of a version of what we presented on where employees teach classes and they do a webinar that anyone can join and it could be in the middle of the day.

So you can take a break from work, which is awesome. Just this week we had an employee teach a yoga class. A few days ago we had, have you guys seen that coffee trend? I can’t remember what it’s called, but it’s like everywhere. It’s like that whipped coffee. We’ve been doing these virtual popups and one of the classes was, we actually have an in-house cuisine team. So we have a lot of chefs that will teach a class to employees how to make your latte fancy with some latte art or how to make this whipped coffee, or how to do homemade pasta.

All these trends we’re seeing, which are really cool, you could actually do tie-dye from the stuff you have in your own house, like with beets or onions, wine. You don’t have to actually go get dye. So learning a lot of things you can use in your pantry

We actually created our own Pinterest account and there’s this board called “Stay In-spired” and it has a lot of different sections.

Kimmie Glass: If you have or haven’t used Pinterest, it could be helpful if you’re looking for ways to, you know, keep your kids active, homeschool your kids, ramp up your work from home set-up. You know, get excited in the kitchen. There’s a lot of ideas there.

Question 9: Where do you think virtual events are going and how important is production? 

Will Curran: I’m excited to see what’s going to, honestly, the stuff that’s happened in the last like four weeks, I’m not as excited for that as much as I’m excited for what’s gonna happen in the next month, because this month was all about people getting ready for this next month. And let’s be honest, if someone had a virtual event in the last month, as good as a lot of them were or have been, or some of them, I guess less.

I think that they obviously got put together at the last minute, but now people have had time to really think and breathe. So, I think like this next month’s gonna have awesome activations.

Tess Vismale: Yeah, I think so. There are a lot of platforms, you know, that you’re seeing coming from across seas that have been there for a while.

There was a conference that went virtual a couple of days last week. It had like Connor McGregor in it and a couple other people. There was some cyber athleticism going on there as well. And it was interesting to see people interacting in a different kind of way to doing funny things on stage, not just doing yoga at their home.

Right. But they kind of staged it in which they got people involved in it. They were doing it, and then they were doing like tips as well in a chat. So, it’s interesting where your mind is going to help carve these experiences out in different ways that we might not have thought about had we just stayed straight face to face and have the option of doing other things. Now we get to touch different people. 

This week, I was able to work on an event with Edwin Moses, who was an Olympian champion of track and field, and he was to be in the 1980s Olympics.

And you know, all of them had to stop and not go because of the boycotting took place there. But then we have our 2020 athletes who again, had to stop, pause, and they’re pushed to 2021 so there was a town hall with the Olympians coming in, and it was a great opportunity because the Olympians got to speak with, they don’t get as much of a platform to speak with some of the current day.

So we had, you know, like Willie Gault participate. He actually watched it. We couldn’t bring him up, but we brought in, uh, Greg Louganis. He just happened to show up there and we actually were able to bring him up on screen. But from a production standpoint, like what Will knows is it’s challenging to do it in a zoom platform because there’s no waiting room when I’m trying to be live to really prep someone to then say, okay, let’s go.

If you’re going to just use Zoom, you’d have to use other things to work with the platform to kind of stage it out. So please don’t forget that it is a production, right.

Will Curran: Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s funny too, like, so we’ve been producing a couple events this last week and I’ve been watching a lot of the data that’s been coming out of it and watching the, what’s great about this is that we 100 percent manage all the feedback forms too, so I get to see the attendees.

It’s crazy how the number one thing that we hear from people is just the production value. Just putting a little bit more production value in, having someone who thinks production, just like really elevates it. Like it’s so crazy cause we’re sitting here like, “Man, this person didn’t have a big budget.”

We just can only do things like music and check. But those novel things are just crushing it right now for us. This has been very, very interesting that you’ve got to think from a production standpoint, for sure. I mean, yeah, I think from a strategic standpoint and all these things like that too.

But you know, it’s crazy how it goes that far.

Question 10: My first sales call with a new corporate virtual event is on Monday. What information should I gather? How do I price my services? I am pivoting from live events. 

Tess Vismale: Outside of pricing, there’s tons of things that the person should be preparing for. And I think that’ll give a good window idea to the whole  audience. How to think through what you’re prepping for.

Kimmie Glass: Can we get some more context on this question? What are the needs here?

You know, um, is this a large event, small event? Are they looking for people to use breakout sessions or is it just webinars? Um, I would first understand that before I would make, you know, recommendations, and I think you would have to understand the needs of the event before you would even throw out any pricing.

Tess Vismale: What we need to get out of our heads about as planners is the daunting thought of this being virtual. The process. It’s still the same, right?

The channel on which you’re producing it in is virtual. So you still should go through those same things.

Kimmie Glass: Yeah, and going back to what are the needs of the event. That’s kind of how we approached our presentation. We started off at the very beginning, what are the goals of the event, and then how do we achieve those goals and the goals, you know, we’re having employees try something new, get engaged, and really bring to life inspiration and try new things. And from there we kind of decided, okay, how do we help employees try new things? And then the rest of the presentation was pretty much the tactics we brainstormed from there. 

Question 11: I’m here jumping between watching y’all on the chat, Slido with Q&A and then notes, poking at all of the references trying to keep up and going down a rabbit hole as a planner, how do we avoid that? 

Kimmie Glass: Yes. I totally agree. I’m having the same problem. Like I feel like a lot of these events you are using three different services and it’s a lot to follow. Hence why I was just following Nina scrolling instead of going back and forth.  I think one thing that’s helpful though is once you understand the needs and as we all said, you know, platforms can range, there’s not one platform that’s better than another.

It really depends what you need. But I will recommend, like, try to stick to one or two at most. Cause it does get overwhelming, especially for some people who might have attended an event and they may not be so technological savvy, you know, and they only want to look at one platform. I will say though, Nina did a great job with the hackathon, it was really helpful.

I knew that through Socio I was getting all new announcements. Like I just, it was a one-stop shop going to this app. I could look at, you know, anything that was coming to my email was in the app as well. So I think sticking to like maybe one service is probably best in my opinion.

Will Curran: I have some technical things that can help too. A platform like Socio is really good too because what that allows is iframe embedding, if you have no idea what I’m talking about right now, ask your web design nerd friends or ask some people who are the production people. But the idea is that you can do iframe. 

So in this case, Socio is embedding Slido, which is a separate platform inside their own platform, which is awesome. And that’s the way you got to do it. It makes it so people can click one button and have it all on one platform as well. The other thing I think that helps a ton from a production standpoint is having a really good, MC/moderator, too, that understands the platform a hundred percent.

So for example, you don’t want to bring, someone who’s just good at moderating, asking questions, but somebody who understands the difference between Slido, Socio, Zoom, knows how to use all the features and knows how to do it right. Because for example, like me, I have Slido open on my phone and that’s how I’m able to kind of scroll through the questions and I can kind of help act as a little bit of a moderator to help people like Kimmy who were like, “I just want to have one thing open and just focus on talking at once.” Whereas like me, I’m able to look at 17 things at once. I’m also talking to my team on Slack right now. I can multitask like crazy. That’s also going to be really helpful too.

Tess Vismale: Um, I think there’s a couple of things that you have to kind of take to account, which is information and communication first. So what I’m seeing a lot is people are sending emails out saying, “Hey, join us on this virtual event.” And then sending the link a day or two before, and then a reminder a day or two before, they’re not telling and communicating two things to the audience, how you want them to engage with you. They’re not saying, “Hey, we’re going to use Slack for communication. Please log onto Slack ahead of time. This is what Slack does. This is how we like you to engage.” There is no communication about that. They’re just like, “Hey, get on Slack and keep going.”

Or get into Zoom and you’re going to use Q&A and chat, well, you don’t even know what that means. Some people put their questions in the chat box and don’t put their questions in the Q&A and use the chat box questions as opposed to the Q&A for questions. So please educate your audience who are going to show up with you, how you want them to operate and make it, like Kimmie said, clean and clear for them and try and mitigate how they interact because you’re going to need to make the assumptions. They’re going to do other things. And I think also from the panelist speaker participant’s side to making it clear for them and then also remember when people actually engage. Like if I was going to get on to Zoom or get onto any platform that I’m going to engage with as an attendee, I need a pop up.

I need some sort of communication, not just, “Hello and welcome.” Either a person’s going to verbally tell me again how to engage and the details around that, or there’s something’s going to pop up, something to tell me how it’s best to engage to keep the conversations together because people are forgetting.

Lots of people don’t know how to multitask, and multitasking technically doesn’t exist in our brains. We still only do one thing at a time. So yes, if we don’t coach people how to do that, it’s going to be very difficult and distractions happen. So, you need to do your content in bite size chunks.

Have them stand up, stretch, whatever you’re going to do. Do not think that you need to have a 30-minute straight session. Don’t think you need to have a 15-minute straight session, right? If you look at anybody who has chosen to show their screen.

We’re doing all kinds of things, right? We’re scratching our heads. We’re doing everything. We’re moving our glasses like my friend Shawn did. I got to do all kinds of things. Right? That could be distracting to the person. So you need to understand how that’s going to engage. So, I said streamlining the process is best and also working with things that embed, and there’s another example to what Will said, is one of my favorite platforms known to man that everyone knows is Conferences IO.

And I’m so glad that I saw Sarah and Joe mentioned conferences IO is actually now embedded and works with Zoom directly. So there you’re seeing a lot of people play in the Zoom sandbox, if you will. You need to make sure that your integrations work well within a platform so people don’t have to go so many different places.

And be careful when you’re using something like a YouTube because, think about it. They come to your platform. There’s some people who choose to go to YouTube and all of those conversations will be over there.

Kimmie Glass: Well, I was just gonna say one thing that Will touched on that I found really helpful is to make it as streamlined for the audience as possible. Having one, like a person whose sole job is to just know all the technology of whatever platform you’re using, and then the speakers don’t have to be stressed about that, they know that the AP person is handling it. Speakers just focus on focusing on speaking and answering questions, and then having a moderator to surface those questions. Especially when you get into like the thousands, it’s a lot for a speaker to focus on answering questions and looking for those questions.

It’s really helpful having someone like Nina to just pull it up. Um, so I would say those three jobs are really important that we haven’t always used in the past when we were in person that I think we should always consider.

Tess Vismale: And a back channel. When I’ve joined as an attendee or even just on a production standpoint since the beginning of March, they don’t have a back channel at all.

We’ll hear you running into that. Nina’s shaking her head like, yep. Yeah, definitely.

Will Curran: I like Zoom right now because like for most people don’t realize too was Nina and I have been messaging back and forth about the Slido platform and things like that as well. If that back channel doesn’t exist, the only way you can do it publicly is the same way that used to have comms back in the day.

That used to be all these people talking to each other. “How are we going to produce this?” You know, um, I think that’s really, really important as well. But yeah, definitely. Moderators with big webinars, or not even webinars, events are so important. And I found that like a virtual MC, a virtual moderator makes or breaks the entire conversation as well.

Kimmie Glass: Just keeping in mind, not everyone’s connection is the same. Some people’s WIFI goes in and out. If you’re having a speaker come and it’s really important — everything they’re saying. We actually had a situation where we had a spokesperson on the news and some news people because they don’t want to face the difficulty of bad connection, they say it’s live, but it’s actually a prerecording. But we had a situation where it actually was live and the person who is answering questions couldn’t understand what was being asked to them because the connection kept going in and out. So, I always take into account: should it be live, should it not be live?

And there was a comment I think a little back that said, um, it is really, I do agree that it’s really helpful at the end to send everything out. Some people may have left this webinar halfway through because they had a kid bothering them in the background. Who knows? So, send an email of all information in one recap email.

I think it’s really helpful, now more than ever. We’re receiving too much communication. It’s hard to find things.

Tess Vismale: You should coach your speakers and your panelists on what to do if anything goes wrong. Planners, first things first, we never want someone on stage in a face-to-face event to say that there’s a technical problem. You don’t want that to happen. No, you don’t want that, and you definitely don’t want it in a virtual situation.

So coach them, if something happens, where to turn, that’s why the back channel is helpful for them to know what’s going on, but at least give them a term. You know, a transition, something a little bit that they could say to make them feel comfortable. So if something happens, you can have the front face that the show is still going on.

Question 12: What’s each of your favorite ways to get attendees engaged?

Will Curran: Ways to get people engaged, like tell people to click on buttons on their screen and do things on their screen. Like right now, everybody sees a raise hand functionality. You know what’s going to happen. if you saw our presentation, you know what’s about to happen? All right?

Put those hands down. All right, ready? We’re all going to click on it at once. Ready? One, two, three, everybody raise your hands. Okay. And what’s great about this as well and the way they get engaged is, and how I can tell exactly who’s paying attention and who isn’t paying attention as well. So everybody get those hands up.

Raise your hands, raise your hands, raise your hands. Perfect. Perfect. Perfect. I like making people click buttons. I don’t know about you. 

Tess Vismale: I think the biggest thing is asking people. I don’t think we do enough asking. You have a database of people who you are crafting something for and don’t do it in your mind.

Ask them how they like to be engaged. It’s a quick poll question in the beginning when they register. Easy, right? And you can take all of that into account and then you’ll have data for the future, whether or not you can use it or not.

Quick aside – What is the coolest sponsorship you’ve seen? 

Kimmie Glass: There is a hilarious Netflix campaign. It turned out to be fake, but it still went viral and it was essentially since people should be staying inside right now, like in the subways and the trains, there are all these ads telling people the ending of certain Netflix shows.

Back to the engagement question…

Tess Vismale: People don’t think about the chat. There’s so much things that have, there’s so much content that happens within a chat. I’d very rarely see anyone share that chat information back out at the end.

It’s so much stuff. And then what happens is you come off with the event and you feel like you’re lost. And you couldn’t keep track cause maybe you don’t know how to scroll. Maybe it just went too fast. Maybe you didn’t get a chance to, and it’s really great stuff. So as an event owner, I encourage you to either share that information that’s in the chat and then also repurpose it and utilize it as a way in which you can drive designing your events for the future.

And you know, you know, guys, we’re building a community here for the future that’s totally different than what it used to be. So, you know, from Scott sharing all, I appreciate him sharing his thoughts. Everyone’s sharing what they needed to share from now because it takes us all.

We should focus in a spirit like we did with our name, which was Creatives United to Revive Events. So that’s what we do, and that’s what we will continue to do.